Americans and their patriotism

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By Ninjak_XO Tue-2-Jun-2020 08:47:13

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To start, I will point out that I don't mean this to bash anyone from America. I just want to know what the fuck is up with how patriotic Americans seem to be? I honestly don't get it.

In the UK, there's very few people that are patriotic. Or there might be more, we just don't get all angry about it. Take wrestling, for example, I've attended a few events for WWE, TNA, etc and not once have I heard a UK or England chant, whereas on TV you get a load of USA ones depending on who's wrestling. See it in UFC as well. Sure, we'll cheer the UK person and boo the foreign one, but that's as far as it goes. On TV I see people getting angry at someone saying something bad about America and it's all like "don't you dare fucking talk about my country like that", whereas here if someone says something bad about our country, we're more likely to say "yeah, it's pretty shit but we're working on getting it improved, hopefully".

Seriously, help me out here. I want to understand it, because as an Englishman, I just don't understand why Americans are so patriotic. I'm sure a lot of people living here do love the country, but we don't go mad about it (well, the vast majority don't at least)

And I definitely don't want this to be a racial thing or get into that kind of discussion, but I saw a MAGA clip the other day telling people to go back to their country because they need to "make America great again" and all I could think was aren't most of them born from immigrants at some point? This just adds to my confusion over it.


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By LHeat87 Tue-2-Jun-2020 11:24:36

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I guess my question is why aren’t you patriotic? Lol. I’m not one to chant constantly or anything, but I certainly have no issue with anyone who loves their country. One thing that has always brought American citizens together Has been the constitution. We’ll fight with each other but the second you try to infringe on our rights, we lose are minds collectively.

As much as Americans may bitch and moan, it’s still a great place to live and raise a family.

I def won’t pretend like some people don’t do it to rile others up and be annoying. But there’s nothing wrong with having pride in your country. It’s a universal chant that doesn’t get old and is positive.

Also keep in mind the whole Kaepernick kneeling, that lead to a lot of people on one side of the issue exploding in patriotism.

I won’t lie. I’m a bit baffled by your surprise. People are so much more passionate about much less things in their lives and American patriotism is where you get confused? Lol


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By Ninjak_XO Tue-2-Jun-2020 12:10:09

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Oh, there are definitely other things that people are passionate about that confuse me. Just really don't understand patriotism. Yeah, I love my country, but I'd never say it's the best or that I'd do anything for it. I'd actually do very little for my country. Just seems like an odd thing for some people to be so passionate about to me, although that's probably because it's not something that we get all railed up about over here. There are a few people really passionate about the royal family, and a small racist group Britain First who make some hilarious contractionary comments showing just how stupid they are. But that's about it.

The Kaepernick kneeling one is a good example. Really could not understand what the big fuss about that was. You'd think he'd taken a big shit on the flag or something. The closest we've had to that is one paper, that's notorious for trying to stir shit and generally being despicable, trying to make a big fuss about Wayne Rooney not singing the national anthem one time before an international game. Nobody actually gave a shit though. It seriously baffles me that the kneeling thing was such a big deal that we all heard about it over here.


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By benjawi Tue-2-Jun-2020 12:32:53

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Disagree about never seeing it here... You walked outside when the World Cup was on? When it comes to sports we can get very patriotic. Granted that's about it... But the football alone shows that we can and do go mad for our country at times.


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By LHeat87 Tue-2-Jun-2020 12:38:59

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I also think in the grand scheme of the things, our country was founded not that long ago when compared to most of the others. I do think over time it won’t be as prominent. Some people will always be, some people will be but not shout it every chance they get (me), and others just won’t care.

Look at how viewing our leaders have changed. JFK and his wife were treated like Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie. Now whoever is running the show is the biggest source of comedic entertainment.

Kaepernick is a different story. There’s a lot of different factors there, but that’s just one example.

Man you should hear some of the people down south! They are the definition of patriotism. And they lost the civil war!


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By Gorgrim Tue-2-Jun-2020 16:36:58

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The reason you won't see the English be all patriotic all the frickin time is because of British Imperial History. We've had the biggest Empire in the world, and yeah, that included America, and quite frankly, it's not seen as a particularly grand thing to be proud of anymore. The English were ruthless, despotic, racist and generally bad news top anyone who wasn't English, and have been for a millennium or more. The Empire fragmenting was the best thing to happen to the world at the time. This is why the English rarely feel particularly patriotic outside of major sporting events. The rest of the time they regard the whole thing with amusement and a lacklustre derision of the whole thing.

Now, the reason I don't, or have rarely said 'we', is that I'm Welsh, and we do feel quite patriotic and proud of our little country, and that's despite the efforts of the English over the last thousand years to stamp out the Welsh. It helps that we have  managed to keep our culture, language and legends, where the Normans pretty much got rid of any form of English mythology when they beat the Saxons. Essentially, Patriotism in England is actually a very complicated thing, and even for the other countries of the UK, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, who all have a far stronger sense of patriotism, the fanaticism of the average American, especially in the south is pretty baffling to us at best and pretty obnoxious at worst. But you are probably right LHeat, it is likely to be young country syndrome! It should ware off in another century or so! :-P


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By Pilgrim Paige Tue-2-Jun-2020 20:05:41

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LHeat87 wrote

One thing that has always brought American citizens together Has been the constitution. We’ll fight with each other but the second you try to infringe on our rights, we lose are minds collectively.

Many rights only exist and/or are beneficial for some citizens and can all be taken away in the blink of an eye, though, sadly. As for the "losing minds collectively about rights infringement", yeah just... no. Doesn't happen collectively, not truly. E.g., I don't see anyone pushing to allow trans people to join the military - a right that was just taken away not long ago, which started with nothing more than a transphobic tweet from the POTUS, citing spending costs that didn't add up. I don't see the whole country coming together for black people's rights in America right now - sure, some are - more than in a long time, but certainly not all. Same was true a few years ago, same was true a decade ago, same was true in Martin Luther King's time. The idea that Americans ever come together as one in the name of rights relies on a certain degree of ignorance about how many Americans are in lack of even basic human rights and the fact too little is, will be, and has been done - for decades on end, in many cases. That's why this moment in US history is so critical right now, it's gotten huge and intense out of necessity/desperation, nothing else worked. And yeah - if it's something more trivial, then sure, a whole lot of backlash kicks up. Goes back to the Target thing - more people caring about an insured retail outlet than human lives and rights. That form of coming together doesn't stir anything in me besides frustration and disappointment.

As much as Americans may bitch and moan, it’s still a great place to live and raise a family.

Unless poor, or someone gets sick and can't pay up;  or has skin that isn't white;  or is a single mother who's victim to the wage gap;  or a single father who can't get time off work for the same reason a single, new mother (usually) would;  or is a same-sex couple whose adoptive rights are being whittled away bit by bit;  or the kids don't know shit about fuck because they're trapped in a hopeless, dead-end school system that gave up decades ago;  or the police are in riot gear shooting paint canisters at you while you're on your own property;  or the country is doing by far the worst of any re: a global pandemic;  or a million other social and economic issues;  or any combination of any of the above... shit like that is definitely less great for living and raising a family. That's a whole lot of people and families, and even if it weren't, it'd still matter all the same. It's only a great place for some to live - and that number seems to steadily decrease, bit-by-bit, all the time.

I def won’t pretend like some people don’t do it to rile others up and be annoying. But there’s nothing wrong with having pride in your country. It’s a universal chant that doesn’t get old and is positive.

It's positive for the upper %1, for sure. Shows them plenty of people are still indoctrinated and docile buyers of the Great American Bullshit Story. Blind patriotism is profitable.

I won’t lie. I’m a bit baffled by your surprise. People are so much more passionate about much less things in their lives and American patriotism is where you get confused? Lol

Because from outside of it, the prevalence as well as the levels of fanaticism and ignorance that come with it are utterly insane. I'm a Canadian, born and raised. This is a fact I have damn near no pride in, because 1) A country is either an abstract concept or the people living in it; I see it as the latter, and thus 2) All kinds of people are Canadian, none of whom are more so than the people who were here before colonialism came and fucked their collective lives into a coma. Hell, I live in Newfoundland. You know what the indigenous people here were called? Beothuks. I know this because I read about it at school when I was 10 years old, which was the only way for me to glean insight into Beothuk life, 'cause of that pesky genocide thing that means there are no Beothuks anymore. John Cabot founded this island in the same way drunk teens find cheap burger joints at 3am on a Friday night: he stumbled on something that was already there, already had people in it, and caused mayhem and destruction in the name of seeking a quick fix to a self-made problem. I do not celebrate Canada Day, Thanksgiving Day or any other colonial-rooted holiday. Sometimes people ask why, and I tell them just the same. If this were the States, though, there'd be a lot outrage and cries of "Why don't you love your country, it's the greatest country on earth!", as though it's a personal affront. Which is silly at best, threatening at worst.

Kaepernick took a knee as a peaceful measure of protest against a country founded and formed on systemic racism, and a ton of American people lost their collective shit. What's going on right now - same deal, grander scale. It's rather bizarre to me.

If folks don't celebrate Independence Day, they're judged harshly for it, being called out for being so "unamerican". I stay home on Canada Day and no one says shit to me that's more than maybe a simple "Happy Canada Day!" - I'll take the latter over the former, every time.

Also, on a personal note, things here seem to be somewhat less assault-y and murder-y for people like me, and black folks, and those who are both that no one gives a damn about, dying at an alarming rate at the intersection of racism and transphobia. Things are still fucked up in a variety of ways for a whole lot of people in Canada, though, including myself, and we've failed our indigenous populations just as badly as the States has. So hooray for all that. 😕

Look - if you're lucky enough, and worked hard enough, to be doing well in terms of your own life, home life and family life, that's legit a really awesome thing. Seriously. I only hope it remains that way, because I know that so much can change in the blink of an eye and it hurts to see that happen, especially to good honest people with awesome 4CW characters. 😋 All that said, my ultimate point here is that it's important to remember that, no matter what your own situation is, things in the States - and in the world frankly - are almost inconceivably messed up for a whole lot of people, and many US citizens are constantly at war with one another while the real enemy sits on their heads, hearts, rights, and wallets. There's no forward motion in staunch patriotism, it's a fool's game and the table is tilted. Forward motion comes through awareness and the push for better days; and knowledge is half the battle, after all.

Last edited by Pilgrim Paige (Tue-2-Jun-2020 20:12:15)


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By LHeat87 Tue-2-Jun-2020 22:15:29

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Paige I don’t even know where to begin. I was speaking in generalities, which for the most part is true. I can’t break down every single thing wrong with the country. Nor did I even elude that it was perfect. And yes 1000% yes people can’t very upset when their rights are infringed upon. And good god did you really think I meant as a collective bunch? No. I didn’t say that. If people’s rights are infringed upon they get upset. ALWAYS. I never said if they see other people’s rights get infringed upon., then also get upset. B/c you’re right they don’t. That’s the entire divide with our country. Please don’t take too many liberties with what I said in text. This also isn’t the issue we were discussing.

The issues of today are actually why I stated I could see the patriotism falling off over time, so I’d think we’d be in agreement there. That seemed to have gotten ignored when this point was made against me.

The comment about the 1% I can’t lol yeah you’re right their assholes. Every country has em.

And this is a good place to live. Go live in the Middle East and see how they treat people. Try protesting there. I never said this was the greatest place to live, but it is still good and growing. No country is perfect. And we’ve got a lot of work to do. I am also sorry that I am a white male, I know that takes away any of my creditably in this discussion. By the way, my wife just missed out on a promotion because of Affirmative Action.

Kaepernick’s protest was peaceful, but you know it’s going to enrage people who actually use sports to get away from the BS from today. Not too mention, Kaepernick was barely hanging on to his career when he started this, so people were a little suspicious to begin with. Either way, I’d take the kneeling over the looting.

I’m not that Patriotic. Do I want Team USA to win the Olympics? Yes. But that’s about it. The government fucks us royally, but it could def be a lot worse. I can’t solve every problem America has, but I understand why people are patriotic. Which was the question. I stand by everything I said. It OBVIOUSLY doesn’t apply to everyone.

I really don’t want to start a political debate. That’s a quick way to lose the forums lol. But most of my reasoning for the patriotism is from a time that doesn’t exist anymore, but people are still patriotic. I’ve already said too much.

Everyone is already testy. If you want a political debate, I suggest you make a new topic. I’ll stay out. But please don’t break down what I said and morph it to fit your agenda. I respect you, I like you, and I 100% support you. Lots of love to all!


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By Gorgrim Tue-2-Jun-2020 22:35:08

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Gotta say, even if I had the money to move to the US, I wouldn't, just because of the unnatural love of firearms that country has bred, not to mention the private healthcare system seemingly designed to kill the poor and make the relatively well off poor... Yes, there are many good things to say about the States, but from the outside, those who say it's the greatest country in the world are frankly imbeciles and need more world experience. Even just looking at the stats for healthcare, education and general happyness, that monicor might be more appropriate to a country like Norway or Finland...

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By LHeat87 Tue-2-Jun-2020 22:39:55

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I don’t see how any of that has to do with why those who are already here have patriotism lol bc I wouldn’t argue with anything else

Well except for what I said being broken down and taken out of context.

Let’s stick to the thread people. This isn’t “Let’s Bash America”


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By LHeat87 Tue-2-Jun-2020 22:40:12

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But I can start a thread if you’d like, I’m honestly not bothered


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By Gorgrim Tue-2-Jun-2020 22:43:20

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Yeah I'm sorry dude, it's late, I'm tired and the news is full of America imploding with the riots. I apologize for venting, not to mention getting somewhat off topic! Keep safe dude!


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By LHeat87 Tue-2-Jun-2020 22:46:59

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Lol you’re good my man


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By Pilgrim Paige Tue-2-Jun-2020 23:31:02

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Ahh. I definitely misunderstood some of what you were saying in your first post in this thread, Heat. Sorry about that. My aim wasn't to twist anything, mind - I just had some incorrect takeaways and did a bit of gun-jumping, which sucks and is something I try to avoid. Actually, this was the fist time in ages I posted anything politically-inclined on a forum or any platform really. On what few platforms I do observe, I'm quite envious of how good some folks are at having a civil discourse, not getting too emotional and losing ground, meaning or direction. I've never been so good at that, frankly.

Re: current events in general, I've been heeding a lot of what's going on the States, and it's a looot for just one headspace. I've been a part of protest marches before - of a different kind, mind. But nothing even remotely like what's going down in the States, and my heart goes out to every person doing their part.

I am also sorry that I am a white male, I know that takes away any of my creditably in this discussion.

Not sure what the root of this line of thought is. I don't feel one's race means they can't chat about issues centred on other races at all. Comparatively, I'm all for people putting in their two cents on queer matters, and actually encourage folks I know to chat about such things, ask questions, etc. As it happens, did a presentation that half slideshow, half free-flowing conversation and personal experiences, question taking etc. Went quite well, nice to engage with people on matters of inclusivity, representation, policy, allyship and the like.

Either way, I’d take the kneeling over the looting.

The looting is both irrelevant *and* relevant to the greater issue at hand, I feel. Irrelevant in relation to the greater issue, but also, much of it is being done purposefully by white supremacists to make protesters look bad/violent and divert attention from the real issues and the sickening actions of the police. This ties right back into the root issue, so on that level, the looting is worth noting. The videos I've watched from protests, most people are kneeling or sitting, many with hands raised as well. But there's also videos of white dudes showing up in trucks smashing shop windows, grabbing shit and bailing before the police violence breaks out, all while any black people nearby beg them to stop. Subversive action, simply put. And at the end of the day, shop owners have insurance. A lot of the protesters don't.

Last edited by Pilgrim Paige (Wed-3-Jun-2020 00:31:33)


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By LHeat87 Wed-3-Jun-2020 01:52:02

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All good Paige. First COVID-19 and now the looting. Def not the time for the patriotism conversation lol


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By Ninjak_XO Wed-3-Jun-2020 12:40:30

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Like I said at the beginning, I definitely don't want this to be a bashing against Americans at all. You guys all seem cool. I only started this because I was watching something whilst on the phone to a mate and we ended up talking about this for half an hour and neither of us could work it out.

As a side, I hope any of you Americans are keeping safe. It seems crazy over there at the moment.


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By LHeat87 Wed-3-Jun-2020 12:50:25

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Thanks bud. It’s crazy and I gotta be out in it because I’m an “essential” employee. Luckily I’m not close enough to Philly to see any ramifications up close.....yet. Fingers crossed it doesn’t go on for much longer or get any worse.


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By rhys Wed-3-Jun-2020 23:41:18

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I think general Patriotism is fine and healthy. It's perfectly fine to be proud of your culture, your history and your legacy.

Every single country has a whole slew of problems, but most regular people are only patriotic for fun and celebratory times. A sports event, a national holiday, etc. Americans are pretty strong in their patriotism in this manner, and so are the Welsh for that matter.

Anything beyond that isn't really true Patriotism. Or at least not morally-justified Patriotism. It's fine to love your home, without it meaning you hate anyone who didn't come from your home.

Also, thank you all for keeping this thread well-mannered and within board rules. I know how easy it is for threads like this to turn into a shit show and I appreciate all of your maturity.


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